What Would Pontiac Be Like In 2015 ?

"Margin Of Error" (marginoferror) 10/19/2015 at 12:53 • Filed to: QUESTION OF THE DAY

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It’s been six years since GM had to kill its two best brand; SAAB and Pontiac, in order to please some clueless politicians in Washington D.C.

At the time, Pontiac was on its way become GM’s most exciting division, because Sir Bob Lutz had a plan to make Pontiac great again. The G8, Solstice, G5 GT and G6 GT Street were all sport oriented cars aimed at enthusiasts, and they were all available with a manual transmission.

So now, five years later, what would be going on at the company formerly known to build excitement ?

Would they make a better job at selling the SS, probably, would they have a Miata/BRZ fighter, a proper hot hatch to fight against the ST siblings, it’s own version of the Cadillac ATS, a Trans-AM, what else

So we want to know what would Pontiac be like in 2016, there’s no good or bad answer because there’s no Pontiac in 2016. Go with your guts feeling.

Supreme Chancellor and Glorious Leader SaveTheIntegras > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 12:55

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badge engineering to the max most likely..............

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > Supreme Chancellor and Glorious Leader SaveTheIntegras 10/19/2015 at 12:57

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Exactly this. Probably selling horrid Pontiac versions of the Spark and Equinox.

Margin Of Error > Supreme Chancellor and Glorious Leader SaveTheIntegras 10/19/2015 at 12:57

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That’s very pessimistic, I think they were actually trying to get away from obvious badge-swapping

TheHondaBro > Supreme Chancellor and Glorious Leader SaveTheIntegras 10/19/2015 at 12:58

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A new Firebird that sort of looks like a Camaro and is a Camaro.

DoYouEvenShift > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 13:01

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Im sure there would be Pontiac versions of the Cruze, Sonic, Equinox, etc. But the G8 would of continued, as would a Firebird. Those last two are worth the badge sharing IMO.

Your boy, BJR > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 13:02

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Shitty because they were a terrible brand and I'm glad they're dead forever

Margin Of Error > Your boy, BJR 10/19/2015 at 13:03

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Urambo Tauro > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 13:03

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The Pontiac versions often had more sporty, aggressive styling. It would be interesting to see what they could have done with cars like the Cruze or the Volt.

Supreme Chancellor and Glorious Leader SaveTheIntegras > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 13:05

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I’ll assume they’d have their own version of the Sonic, maybe Cruze, Camaro, the SS would solely be theirs, and maybe something else that my sick mind cannot think of at the moment.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 13:07

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What I think would happen - badge engineered twins of GM’s product line with the awful Gx naming convention.

What I want to see happen?

Firebird based on Camaro (I’m ok with this)

Use the Holden platform to make a Bonneville (same as the G8 GT), GTO (2 door car) and an El Camino? (needs a Pontiac name though) which is the Holden Ute. All these cars get a 3.6L V6 or LSx or LTx V8 engine.

Do a midsize RWD sports couple using the Cadillac ATS as a base platform, with the 2.0 Turbo and V6 options. Make this the new Grand Am (or something).

Then resurrect the Solstice and take on the BRZ/FR-S and Miata all in one fell swoop. Use the 1.5L turbo as the base engine, optional is the 2.0L turbo from the ATS.

Lastly I’d transform the Sonic into a proper hot hatch. Maybe it could be the new Le Mans. Offer the 1.5L turbo as a base engine, 2.0 turbo as an option. I’d also love to see optional AWD.

Jcarr > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 13:08

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Based on the brief experience I had with the Grand Am my wife had when we got married I can say that the following things would probably be true about Pontiac if they were still around:

There would be 30% too much body cladding (I wanted to say 50%, but they seemed to be getting better toward the end)

The cruise control wouldn’t work

The power windows would be painfully slow

The wheels would be pitted and stained with brake dust

The fan would only work on 4 and 5

The stereo would muffled and way too bassy

Margin Of Error > Snuze: Needs another Swede 10/19/2015 at 13:10

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That’s very interesting, love the nuevo LeMans idea.

Vítor > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 13:11

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In 2009/10 Pontiac was seeling a rebadged Spark (Matiz), a rebadged Ave0 (G3), a rebadged Holden (G8), a rebadged Equinox (Torrent), a rebadged Relay (Montana), the Vibe, G6 and the Solstice (which has two brothers, the Opel GT and the Saturn Sky)

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 13:13

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Thanks, yeah, I think it would be fun competition to the Fiesta in so far as, Ford has had great success reviving was used to be viewed as a pretty awful car.

gin-san - shitpost specialist > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 13:14

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Did these hood vents work?

boxrocket > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 13:16

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Approximately as redundant and neglected as Buick is now, I imagine. GM could just be Chevy and Cadillac in North America and be just fine.

TheHondaBro > gin-san - shitpost specialist 10/19/2015 at 13:17

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I wouldn’t count on it.

lone_liberal > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 13:18

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I hate to say it, but I think they would be rebadged Chevys. The reason that it was axed was because GM could not justify spending the money to engineer large enough differences between Pontiac and Chevy, and then give both enough marketing. Nothing has really changed there. Add in Buick and there just isn’t enough meat on that bone. Sure, most of us in North American would have closed up Buick before Pontiac and then used the money that freed up to boost Pontiac but you and I both know Buick is all about China not us.

HammerheadFistpunch > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 13:19

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We would have different named GM cars with more stuff stuck to them.

Shoop > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 13:20

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Honestly I’m glad they killed it. It means it can live on in our minds as a great brand, and not one that makes shitty rebrands of other gm products.

Steve in Manhattan > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 13:20

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I don’t think it was politicians so much as two different things: 1) Saab had been losing money for GM (as Clarkson showed) and 2) GM had too many brands for years. It used to be that there was a version of a large sedan with Chevy, Olds, Buick, Pontiac, and Cadillac badges. And other cars. They needed to cut things down, including the dealer network. I think it came down to which division was going to have a performance element - Chevy or Pontiac? There’s really no choice there. I’d rather have seen Buick go, but they had to make hard choices, and Buick sells very well in China. And Hummer, and Saturn, and long ago Olds.

Party-vi > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 13:23

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My gut says they would have continued cannibalizing Chevy sales under the auspices of being the sporty GM product.

Sam > HammerheadFistpunch 10/19/2015 at 13:24

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With 1 or maybe 2 ‘exclusives’. (The G8 and the GTO, probably)

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 13:27

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Hork!

TheHondaBro > Party-vi 10/19/2015 at 13:29

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Except we Americans don’t like regular sporty sedans. (Chevy SS)

Textured Soy Protein > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 13:31

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The problem with Pontiac is that GM felt these were acceptable interiors for a cars introduced in the 2004 model year.

Party-vi > TheHondaBro 10/19/2015 at 13:32

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Not true. We Americans love sporty sedans (See: Dodge Charger R/T). We just don’t like paying $47,000 for the privilege of owning them unless there’s a roundel or tri-star on the hood.

itschrome > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 13:45

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If i recall at time of closure there was talk of the G8 line bringing over the ute.. I’d like to think what we would see is the normal GM rebadge noise but with the G8 and G8 standing out as their own. I don’t think we’d see a firebird bodied Camaro but we would still have the G8 and no SS and it would look less boring and sell more and there would be a UTE version too.. but I could be a dreamer, But i know I’m not the only one..

really though what would be awesome is if they brought Pontiac back and stuck to it as an enthusiast brand. I’d like to see the only models rebadged as GM being the performance models but with Pontiac specific mods such as suspension and other performance options to place them above the other models in performance but maybe with less options else where (see leather,infotainment ect..) to keep the price down in comparison. Imagine a Pontiac ATS-v with cloth and stripped down options.

Alex from Toronto > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 13:48

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They wold be selling mostly rebaged Chevrolets and Firebird based on the Camaro, nothing special really.

Short-throw Granny Shifter is 2 #blessed 2b stressed > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 13:51

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GM not having cars in those segments is not for lack of marques, they just aren’t able to make a market case for those products. The only thing that would be different if Pontiac had survived is we would have had a G8 for a couple more years, which would have been fantastic.

Now, if GM had not been so mismanaged during the economic downturn, that would be a whole different story. I think Pontiac’s current lineup would look a lot like Holden’s in Australia, which the addition of a Firebird.

Chariotoflove > lone_liberal 10/19/2015 at 13:51

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I think you are correct. The two divisions had the same price range, and they didn’t split up the demographics. Chevy wanted to have some performance to spice up their utilitarian product set, and Pontic wanted to have a selection of practical daily driver cars to capture that section of the market. So they overlapped too much, and if they were gonna do that, GM common sense reasoning would leave them a clones of each other.

I think if they shared platforms but really engineered differences in versions of the cars so you couldn’t get the same car from either, it could work. Example: Pontiac had the Solstice. make sure it is the only division to offer that. Chevy has the Impala for big, classy, affordable sedan. Make Pontiac’s big sedan the SS, or something like it, and not make it available to the other divisions.

But in there end, you are right. There is probably not enough money in the modern-day leaner GM to do both right. Heck, even now Buick just rebadges Opels and gets away with it because they are sold to different markets.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 14:01

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Crap. Still.

Justin Hughes > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 14:23

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phobos512 > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 14:33

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Ideally Pontiac could’ve become an import brand - basically Opel or Holden (Insignia and Commodore which became the Regal and G8/SS respectively) for the large four door, Holden for the two door (which probably would’ve kept the Monaro online longer, or moved it “stateside” aka to Brampton), Vauxhall/Opel for the compact/hot hatch (Astra/Astra OPC), utility vehicle (Holden Ute / HSV Maloo - no SUVs here baby) and then a badge engineered Volt/Bolt hybrid pair for the environmentalists if it was insisted upon.

This is instead of some imports going to Buick, some going to Chevy, some going to (formerly) Saturn, some going to Pontiac...Heck you could even make them exclusively performance oriented. They did build driving excitement or something, right (I say this as a former supercharged 04 GTO owner)?

MuchWagon > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 14:51

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MOAR VENTS! MOAR PLASTIC!! And no more shared Toyota platform.

CCC (formerly CyclistCarCoexist) > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 14:56

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A rebadged wagon version of the Buick Enclave Turbo with AWD and only manual (to compete against Focus RS/Evo/WRX/Golf R

Holden commodore variants.

Firebird from different RWD platform as Camaro, prob raid from Caddies

RazoE > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 15:03

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YES

Margin Of Error > RazoE 10/19/2015 at 15:04

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The Burt is a nice touch

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 15:54

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That GTO concept would make a pretty badass mid-engined supercar. It’s already sort of got the proportions for it.

Wacko > TheHondaBro 10/19/2015 at 16:07

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that’s what the firebird was before

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 16:26

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That is highly variable.

If they had gone along with the usual re-branding... they’d be dead already of their own doing, rather than the government forcing the issue too quickly.

If they had actually become what they should have been all along... GM might actually have some performance cars worth considering.

Chevy is not about to give up Corvette, and not about to let a hypothetical Pontiac have a Firebird without a corresponding Camaro, so those are the deals there.

The question is... might Pontiac have had a higher performance version of the Cruze (perhaps the lift-back 5-door) with FWD or AWD...

Might they have kept the G8 instead of letting Chevy fail to sell the SS sedan with no marketing and no panache, with a Holden Coupe 60 Concept-inspired Tempest variant and a limited-edition hot GTO/Judge, along with a variant of the Ute, as well? (a new name, rather than Sprint or Caballero, though...)

Might they have made a Firebird that wasn’t just a Camaro clone... like something smaller, Alpha-based, mixed between an early 2nd-gen F-body, and the Banshee concept, perhaps with a little bit of Caddy ELR’s dramatic profile thrown in...

Might they have actually been allowed to revive a Lotus-fighting, Alfa 4C-fighting Fiero at an affordable price, even if that meant a bit north of $30K?

Might they have morphed the Torrent model line into something more appropriately branded Typhoon, or at least shown GMC how to do it, with some Pontiac DNA thrown in?

All potential ideas... I doubt GM management has the vision or motivation to allow any of that to have happened. Pontiac has been the hobbled step-child for too long, while Chevrolet was the do-anything-it-wants golden child, from economy cars, to family cars, to sporty cars, trucks, and Corvettes. Chevy gets all the cards.

TheHondaBro > Wacko 10/19/2015 at 16:26

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Exactly.

Wacko > TheHondaBro 10/19/2015 at 16:41

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sorry my sarcasm meter is off

DragonBreath > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 17:02

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Where would Pontiac be in 2016?

Where it would really be...trailing behind Chevy with badgeneered versions of Cruze (Sunbird), Malibu (LeMans), Camaro (Firebird) and SS (Bonneville). None of them any better (or worse) than their Chevy counterparts. Badgeneering is what made Pontiac expendable. Even the good G8 and GTO couldn’t save it. It had lost its mojo, in a bevy of mostly awful G5s and G6s, and that probably would be where it would be now.

In my dreams, the Solstice, G8 and GTO would have led a Pontiac resurgence. Stay away from the bland Malibu, but give Pontiac a hot version of the Cruze, and a restyled Camaro for the Firebird.

The problem is that Pontiac lost its separate identity in the blandness of badgeneering. Oldsmobile suffered the same problem. Imagine the Monaro redesigned and badged as a 442, and the G8 as a Rocket 88, and now we are talking.

The problem at GM has always been too many badges. Chevy and Pontiac always shared a lot of the same ground. Oldsmobile and Buick shared exactly the same ground. Whereas I would like to have seen GM choose Oldsmobile over Buick, cutting 5 brands back to 3 was actually a smart idea, and losing Saturn which had moved so far from its initial promise (let’s take cars that are really bland in the UK and sell them in the US).

The reduction from 5 (6) to 3 was a smart move, everyman car (Chevy), luxury car (Cadillac) and something in between (Buick). Heck Ford decided they didn’t need something in between Ford and Lincoln.

CaptDale - is secretly British > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 17:23

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The Feds basically wanted to get GM down to Cadillac and Chevrolet. They said, “you don’t need all these brands. You need one prestige brand, and one mass-market brand.” And we said “well we can’t get rid of Buick because Buick is important in China, and if Buick becomes an orphan in the United States then the Chinese are no longer gonna be interested in it.” And the Feds said “Fair enough, but everything else goes.” We said well we’d also like to keep GMC. They said “well, GMC is basically just like Chevrolet,” and we said “that may be true, there may be a lot of shared components, but GMC has an entirely different image, a different customer base, and people are willing to pay different prices for a GMC, and here’s the profitability,” and the Feds said “whoops, okay, keep GMC.”

So now we had Buick, GMC, Cadillac, and Chevrolet, and then, I wanted, badly wanted, to keep Pontiac, because Pontiac was on its way back, and it had been mismanaged for a number of years, you know, with ‘rebuild excitement,’ and the excitement was only in the plastic body cladding , mechanically there was nothing about Pontiac in the 90s that would make your heart beat faster. And with the solstice and solstice coupe, and with the Pontiac G8, which was a great car. We were embarked on a strategy of making pontiac different from the rest of GM in that Pontiac wouldn’t get any front wheel drive cars, they would all be rear-wheel drive, and the next G6, was going to use the architecture of the cadillac ATS, it was going to be a 3-series sized rear-wheel Pontiac, with basically the Cadillac ATS ‘de-premiumized,’ obviously, a lot of the cost taken out, but still fundamentally that architecture.

That was going to be the next G6, and I think we could’ve moved pontiac away from every other American volume brand and really started positioning it as attractive US alternative to some of the, and obviously at much lower prices than the european rear-wheel drive cars, but the Feds said “yeah, let’s just, how much money have you made on pontiac in the last 10 years?” and the answer was “nothing.” So, it goes. And, when the guy who is handing you the check for 53 billion dollars says I don’t want pontiac, drop pontiac or you don’t get the money, it doesn’t take you very long to make up your mind.

But I think it is a shame, Pontiac was on its way back, and it was killed before it, before the plant could really sprout blossoms, you know, it was well on its way. So, I agree with you, I think Pontiac was a great, wonderful history, mismanaged for a number of years in the 80s and 90s and it was clearly on its way back, and we were starting to see a very good customer base in solstices and especially in the G8, which was favorably compared in a lot of road tests to the BMW 5-series, people would say dynamically the car is as good and it’s more powerful and way cheaper, but that was too bad. but you can’t go through Chapter 11 without some really harmful effects.

A quote from Bob Lutz from the article featured below.

http://jalopnik.com/the-feds-kille…

CaptDale - is secretly British > CaptDale - is secretly British 10/19/2015 at 17:24

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So all of your badge engineering thought are wrong!!! Stop thinking so lowly of GM and Pontiac!!!

ranwhenparked > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 20:39

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Really, GM should have cut its losses on Saab years earlier, to please their own shareholders before Washington ever got involved.

Pontiac is a different story - walking away from a business that’s selling like 450,000 cars a year is a tough decision to make, and one GM probably wouldn’t have done without outside pressure. They are leaner and more profitable now, but I don’t believe they’ve ever grown Chevy and Buick enough to actually replace Pontiac’s market share.

Nauraushaun > Margin Of Error 10/19/2015 at 22:19

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There’d be no GTO. It came from Australia’s Monaro which is no more.

pip bip - choose Corrour > Margin Of Error 10/20/2015 at 04:49

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ew. that poor Monaro!